Episode 17: Interview with Corporate Rebel – Pim de Morree

Episode 17: Interview with Corporate Rebel – Pim de Morree


Jennifer Thompson: Welcome back
to The Deviant Thinking podcast. I’m your host, Jennifer Thompson
today and always will explore career advice that breaks the
rules. I am so excited to have Pim de Morree here with me
today. He’s joining me from Holland. And he is a Corporate
Rebel. And Pim and his partner have recently released a book by
the same name. And I’m going to hand it right over to you, Pim,
and maybe you can tell me a little bit about the mission of
your organization. And you know, kind of the impact you want the
this new book to have. Pim de Morree: Yep. Well, let me
start by saying that I’m first of all, very happy to be here to
be able to share a little bit about the work we’re doing and
and also about our mission. So let’s start with that. Mission
is quite simple. If you put it very simple simply. The mission
of Corporate Rebels is To make work more fun, and sounds maybe
a bit superficial, but what it’s about is to create workplaces
where people are actually highly engaged, where they’re extremely
motivated, where they love to contribute with their talents
and their skills to something that they truly believe in. And
we started the Corporate Rebels a couple of years ago, about
four years ago now. And the reason why we actually believe
that work should be more fun is because we experienced what it’s
like to work in an environment where work is not fun. So we
talk about why by the way, I talk about Joost, my good friend
and myself. And we started the corporate Tebels from this point
of frustration because we experienced that working in the
corporate world, or at least of corporates that we were working
in. were based on such outdated models of work and such outdated
ways of working that we while working there experienced that
work is for many people, especially meeting us, not very
enjoyable. And it was just 40 hours a week, waiting for the
weekend to begin, and then waiting for weeks for the
paycheck to arrive. And that was about the main goal of what we
were trying to do their . And for us that wasn’t really
motivating. So after a couple of years, about three and a half
years of frustrating corporate experience, we decided to quit.
And we came up with this idea of our current company Corporate
Rebels, where we said, let’s visit the world’s most inspiring
workplaces. And let’s spend a couple of days inside these
organizations to understand how they work. And let’s interview
as many people as possible and to understand how they actually
work different than traditional workplaces. And let’s learn how
work can actually be made more fun. So more people actually
enjoy their working lives. And this is what, in a nutshell,
Corporate Rebels so we continuously traveled the world
to visit the world’s most progressive companies and every
Anything we learned we share through our blog, and also, as
you mentioned in our recently published book, but also in
talks and workshops, and all kinds of things that we do to
push this movement forward to make sure that the more people
start enjoying their work, and the more companies actually
changed their ways of working to become more progressive
workplaces themselves. Jennifer Thompson: That sounds
wonderful, and it completely aligns with my clients and the
folks that listen to this podcast. They all have that
desire for work to be more fun. I actually love y ou said it
sounds simple. I actually love that it’s simple because it
really should be right it’s it’s not about this complex idea of
working but just that one should enjoy their work, right? The as
the saying goes, you know, one never works a day, you know, if
they love the work that they they do, and I think that’s the
goal of so many of my clients. I’m curious as you travel the
world I think one of the the good things I hear is there are
progressive companies out there for people to work for, for
people to get engaged with. How did you guys choose these
progressive companies and and determine that they were on your
list to visit? Pim de Morree: Yeah, well, it’s
it’s kind of a personal list. So when we were still in our
corporate careers, and we were thinking about this idea of
figuring out how we’re could be organized differently. We
started by creating a list based on some books we had read. So
for example, the more usual suspects we added to the, to
what we now call our bucket list, so the list of pioneers
that we want to visit to understand how to make work more
fun. So we started with the usual suspects. We read books
from for example, Laszlo Bock, the former HR director at
Google, so we added Google to the list. We heard that Spotify
was doing interesting things when it comes to their own.
organizational structure. So we added Spotify as well. But over
time, we started to dive more into these kinds of radical
workplaces where we’ve really come across some interesting
examples of large companies with no management whatsoever, or
companies where employees set their own salaries are set their
own working hours, and a lot of autonomy and how they do things.
But these companies most of the time are not very well known. So
we’ve been visiting companies all around the world that people
have probably never heard of, but that are doing really
interesting things. And it’s mainly because we’ve been
visiting similar companies. And while visiting these companies,
we then learned about others who are doing similar radical
things. And so still, it’s really hard to find now we’ve
been researching this topic for about four years and traveling
around the world to visit all these companies. And we have
visited about 120 at the moment. And still it’s really hard to
find new ones. So the total list now includes about 170 pioneers.
So that’s academics, CEOs, entrepreneurs and organizations.
And in four years, and that’s still a very short list, I’d
say. So, the vast, vast majority of companies are still very
traditional. It’s really hard to find those radical pioneers out
there that are really challenging the status quo. Jennifer Thompson: So really
searching for that that needle in a haystack. But they’re out
there, which I think is exciting. And I you know, what I
see when I, when I talk to folks from all kinds of organizations,
is there’s a desire to move in that way. They just often don’t
I don’t know. I’m curious as you as you’ve gone to all of these
companies. One of the things that interests me is in your
book, you you talk about that. A lot of these companies hire for
culture, and train for skills and many of my listeners and And
clients are in the job searching mode. And I’m curious about how
like, I guess the question is really like the employees that
show up the ones that they hire? Do you see them as different
folks? Or do? And do they come with that energy and that
experimental mindset? Or are they kind of made once they get
there? Pim de Morree: Well, when when
we talk about hire for culture, train for skills, what we mean
is that back in the days and still a lot of traditional
companies tend to do it like this. They focus on what kind of
skills do we actually need for the people working in our teams
in our organization, and let’s find those skills and then add
them to our organization. While many of these progressive say,
well, skills can be taught and the culture of the organization
is more important than figuring out which skills we actually
need, so it’s more important to first focus On do the people we
are going to hire? Are they actually good fit with our
culture, and if so, then let’s look at if they are interested
in learning the skills that we want them to learn. And so they
kind of turn it the other way around. For example, when we
visited Spotify, we learned about how they actually changed
their recruitment process as well, to make sure a culture was
more at the forefront of the process. So at first, they had,
I believe, four rounds of interviews where the first the
second and the third were focused on skills. And then when
people move through these three stages successfully, they would
end up in a culture interview. But they figured out that they
were just hiring people because of their skills and not so much
because of the culture. Sometimes these people were very
self centered and not focused on team performance, but just on
individual performance. But they were really reluctant not to
hire them because they had already shown in those first
three stages They were such capable and skillful people. And
so they said, why not turn it around? Let’s start with the
culture interview. And if that doesn’t fit, then we don’t even
need to look at the skills anymore. And we can already more
easily put somebody asides during that very first step. And
if people do actually get through it at culture interview,
if there’s a good fit in the culture, then let’s see if we
can also test their skills, but they already have it or maybe
that they are good at developing it, that we can actually focus
our time and energy on getting their skills up to the required
level. So you see that these progressive organizations really
focus much more on that. So finding the people that fit
their values that fit their purpose, and if so, then let’s
see if they have the right skills as well or maybe we can
train them so they can get up to the required skill level. Jennifer Thompson: That sounds
wonderful and and I wish more companies would do That you
talked about that they really defined their values as
companies. Again, that’s something that when I talk to my
clients about I want them to know their own personal values.
As you’ve interviewed all of these companies, are there
common values that each of them have that kind of define them in
this way? Pim de Morree: Well, the painful
thing here is even if you go to traditional companies, they have
all if you look at the values, they more or less seem like
similar companies. So even the very traditional companies say,
well, we have important company values. And whatever we do,
everything is focused on putting those values to the forefront of
our business. But in most cases, that’s actually not the case. So
they have these values. They put them in their annual reports and
sometimes on fancy posters in their meeting rooms. But nobody
really makes decisions based on their values or they don’t
really use them in their recruitment process or in their
incentive system. In the company. So what is actually the
difference between those progressives and traditional
ones is that the progressives actually use them. So they don’t
have a lot of rules in place in their companies. Instead, they
say, well, let’s use the values as our guidelines, let’s use
them in our daily decision making, let’s use them in our
recruitment process, in the way we incentivize people in our
company in the way we do performance assessment, unless
you really use it as a guideline for what we want our culture to
be. So you don’t really see a difference in the actual values.
But you see a difference in the application of those values
between progressives and more traditional companies. Jennifer Thompson: I’m curious
for yourselves as you’ve gone out and looked for these
companies, right? It is really hard. I agree with you to tell
that difference between a company that is progressive is
really living those values and one that’s really good at
marketing and branding, those those values and it is it is a
skill set, I try to teach my clients right, they get to pick
the companies that they work for. And it’s their job to
interview the company as much as it is for the company to to
interview them. Do you have any? How do you interview that
company to determine that difference? Is there like a
favorite question that you asked them? Or? Or how do you dig in
and be able to actually discern that difference between the one
who’s actually walking the walk? And the one who’s just just
doing the talk? Yeah. Pim de Morree: Well, first of
all, that was at first it was a bit harder for us because you
have to kind of think develop your bullshit radar. And at
first, it was really hard for us to figure out okay, this company
sincere or is it actually just just a load of crap. And what is
most important for us actually still today is to actually visit
those companies to talk to many different employees in the
company, whether they are frontline staff or people at the
very top of an organization. And I think once you walk into a
building, and that’s what we noticed very much, once you walk
into a building, once you talk to the people in those
companies, you really feel there’s a difference between the
ones that just say it and the ones that actually also do it
and put it into practice. One, one very telling example is our
visit to one of the workplace pioneers on our list, which is
Patagonia, the outdoor clothing brand, and we went to visit them
back in November 2016. And Patagonia is not just about
making clothes for people who love the outdoors. But it’s also
a company that focuses a lot of its efforts on sustainability
and making sure that the clothes that they make are as less
polluting to the environment as possible. So we went over there
and we actually wanted to learn from them how they do it,
because it’s nice to say it but how do you actually put that
stuff into practice? We had a meeting with them scheduled at
6:30am in Ventura, California, but we actually were supposed to
meet at the beach. So we took our camper van we, which we were
driving back then around the US to visit these pioneers. And we
went to the meeting location at the beach 630 in the morning.
And then, at first nobody was there. So we thought we actually
mixed up the am and pm because we’re not used to using that
here in Holland. But then, after a couple of minutes, a big white
van arrived and his 15 year old hippie jumped out and said,
Well, guys, before we’re gonna share anything about how we work
at Patagonia, we’re gonna make you experience what we’re all
about. And this guy took a surf surfing or at least we were
trying to serve. It was more like rolling around in the
waves. And we were actually experiencing what come with the
company Patagonia was about so they weren’t just telling us why
they were doing what they were doing, but they were actually
making a difference. Period what they were about which is
enjoying outdoors responsibly. And for us, this was already a
very clear sign that this company wasn’t just talking
about it, but they were also actually doing it. And also,
during our talks two days after, and with various employees from
the company constantly learned how they put their purpose and
their values into practice. And that, for example, they quit
their most profitable product line back in the 90s because it
wasn’t sustainable enough for them. So they quit it and found
a solution later on to develop something that was more
sustainable, and only then saw profits increase again, but
constantly walking the talk on issues like this and I think the
main way to figure out if a company actually does it, is to
go there and to talk to many people. So also if you’re
looking for a new job, and if you’re looking for a company
that really fits your personal values and your the purpose that
you are looking for in your job, And the main advice would be to
actually go there and to visit those companies and to talk to
many people. And as you mentioned, interview the company
just as much as the company interviews you Jennifer Thompson: That is such
good advice and and you are right. Patagonia is an amazing
organization and I’ve had the privilege to visit them and work
with their people many, many times and, and you’re right from
the moment you walk in and you’re greeted as a real human
being at the front door and may be comfortable. And then you
attend your meetings sitting outside on the veranda and in
the sunlight. And, you know, and people are coming and going and
the dogs are around, you know, it’s a different kind of place.
And in the same sense, you know, they’re serious about their
business. It’s a really interesting combination. That
they can look so casual in one way but when they get into their
business side, they are are almost ruthless, like he said
and and defending their mission that they were willing to give
up profit to do the right thing. Pim de Morree: Yeah. And this is
what’s inspiring about companies like, like Patagonia that people
believe in what the company stands for. And the company
actually puts its money where its mouth is. And so many
companies are doing the opposite where they talk fancy words, and
they say, well, we care about the environment. And we care
about this, and we care about that. But in the end, all they
care about is their shareholders. And in every
decision important, every important decision that’s being
made people feel, okay, you say one thing, but you do the exact
opposite of what you’re saying. And this completely destroys all
trust in the organizational trust in senior management in a
company. So you can imagine that for companies so it’s important
to actually do as you say, and not just Because it’s, it’s the
right thing to do. And but also because it draws in employees,
it draws in suppliers and customers who believe in the
same thing. And who see that you’re sincere and authentic
about this thing that you actually believe in. So I think
it’s important for for companies and nowadays because not many
companies are actually doing it like this. It’s a very simple
way to differentiate yourself from the vast majority of
companies who do just a talking and not the walking. Jennifer Thompson: Wonderful and
it’s such a simple concept, right? It’s just just honesty
and integrity with with yourself and your mission. So as I’m
thinking one of the one of the other questions that that comes
to mind and again, I have have job seekers out there every day
is they’re they’re looking for these these great organizations.
You know, one thing and it’s easy for me to keep talking
about Patagonia because it’s an organization I’m familiar with,
but one of the things that I see of those employees is they show
up engaged. It’s it’s mutual. Right? Patagonia is getting some
of the best people because they’re honest. But those people
have to show up engaged as well. So I’m curious as you’ve gone
around, I’m sure there’s people that come up in and your book
signings. And so I was like, I wish I could work at one of
these companies, what do I do to be able to work at one of those
companies? What What advice do you tell them so they can get
themselves ready to be a good hire at one of these
organizations. Pim de Morree: But I think it
comes down more or less to the same thing. So being passionate
about what it is that the organization is trying to do.
And so the purpose should be aligned, and the values should
be aligned and you should find a way to show that whether it’s
through. I don’t know the way you approach the company or the
way you go to the interviews or the way you even search for the
companies that you want to apply it. I think First of all
important to understand, okay, what is it that I want
personally in a job? What do I want to contribute to? And what
are my personal values? What do I think is important in the job
and like for my, for myself, for example, having freedom and
flexibility is a very important part of my work. Nowadays, I get
the chance to organize everything myself, but if I
would be looking for a company, freedom and flexibility would be
very high on that list because I want to make my own decision, I
don’t want somebody else to make decisions for me. So if I would
be looking for a company, I first of all had to make sure
that my values align with the company’s values. And then when
you actually start applying to, to those companies, you need to
show I think, through your experience through stuff you’ve
done before, that your values are very much aligned with those
of the company and that you have besides fit with the purpose and
value is also and skills and A lot of energy to add to such an
organization. And I think that’s still the main thing like if we
get people want to, like we have a lot of people want to apply at
our company. And because they love what we do, they believe in
what we stand for. So for us if we have to say no to a lot of
those applications, and the ones we pick out to maybe not even
say yes, but to at least have a talk with those people, is
because we see their passion for our topic. And we see their
passion for the values and the things that we believe in. So if
there’s alignment on those, I think it’s really hard for
companies to say no, to a person who’s applying to them. Jennifer Thompson: Wonderful.
And, and that brings me I’m curious as you as you evaluate
those, those folks that want to work for you, I would imagine
and this is something I encourage my clients to do is To
not be typical when you send an application into one of these
organizations or to yourself, you know if I know myself when I
get the resume and it’s boring looking and they they worry a
little bit too much maybe about the skills and not about their,
their softer skills, and I don’t even know that I like that word,
but more their culture and their energy that they bring. They
seem boring to me. So I’m curious if there’s anyone that
stands out that you’ve hired that maybe did approach things
in a, in a in a more radical or different way that really got
your attention? Pim de Morree: Yeah, well, first
of all, I think it’s important to say that we never hired
somebody based on a resume or motivation letter. And in fact,
we, if we receive those, then we most of the time, don’t even
reply to them. Even though we are very happy with the fact
that they are applying but we simply get so many we can’t
answer them all. And we decide not to pick those because they
often, it’s so standard, like just sending in your resume and
sending in a motivation letter is the very, very, very least
you can do to get a job. So, for us, if we have the opportunity
to pick from more people than just the ones that send in a
resume and a motivation letter, well, then we do that. And we
find the people that are more original that show one way or
another that they are engaged with what we do, for example,
the most recent conversation we had with somebody who wants to
work with us, was actually last Monday a couple of days ago. And
that person had been part of our community already for a while,
and he had shown to be very active to contribute to other
people’s thinking, to share ideas to share knowledge. So we
already knew even before he applied, that he was very
interested in the topic and was contributing a lot of value not
just to us, but also the people in our community. So it was
already on our radar before we actually applied so and I think
that’s something important to understand for people, like if
you show, if you have the passion for what the company you
want to apply for is doing, then find ways to show it not just
through motivation letter and a resume, but through other ways,
more creative ways that you really show that you. I’m not
just saying all these nice things because you want to have
a job, but that you’re actually passionate about this topic.
Because I believe then in the end, it will turn out to be or
it will result in something more meaningful than when you’re just
writing some nice words and send them out to the various
companies. Jennifer Thompson: As you say
that what comes to mind is exactly what you were saying
about a company like Patagonia, right? They show up, they’re
honest, they live their values every day. And you know, now
with our connectedness in the world, and our ability to be on
social media. And so, as a potential employee, you can show
up and walk your walk ever Every day, even if you’re at a company
that is not engaging to you, if you’re passionate about work, if
someone’s passionate about the the corporate rebel concept and
doing work in a very, very different way, even if they’re
in a standard organization, they can still engage with folks who
are doing work in a different way. They can study it, they can
share that information. And you’re right. It’s very, very
visible for a potential organization to see. And I think
that’s a way like I said, to definitely walk the walk, not
just talk about it. Too many people I think, even employees
talk about I want to work at a company that I can be engaged
with, but they don’t know how to be engaged in their own life. Pim de Morree: Yeah, and I think
if you Yeah, I think I think you’re totally right. And I hate
the term personal brands, but what I do like is the fact that
you share what you’re passionate about with others, online or
offline in all kinds of meeting groups are. But if you try to
find what makes you tick and what you’re passionate about,
and you start actually being active in that topic, then I’m
hundred percent sure that good things will come of it. And
whether that’s a new job or a new hobby or new people you want
to meet who believe in the same thing, then I think in the end,
the most important thing is, first of all, to figure out what
it is you want, and then be active in it. So not just read
about it and not tell anyone but try to share what you’re
learning, try to share what you’re passionate about. And I
think then it will kind of grow organically and you will find
something that you also for a job can do that fits what you’re
passionate about. Jennifer Thompson: Wonderful,
which can lead us right to to your book, because that’s your
way of sharing what you guys are passionate about. So for my
listeners who’d be interested, tell us a little bit about that.
The premise of this book and kind of the information that
it’s that it’s sharing. Pim de Morree: Yeah, so and
before doing that, I think one more important thing to add. And
you mentioned, it’s a way for us to share what we are learning
and what we’re passionate about. It’s hundred percent true. And
we’ve been doing it from the very start. So now it sounds
nice. We’ve written a book and sounds so fancy, but it’s, I can
tell you, when we started four years ago, we had nothing but a
very small room where we moved in together because we had to
save costs. And we had this very bad looking blog where we were
sharing everything we were learning in a very shitty way
I’d say because we we weren’t good writers and I still very
doubtful we are nowadays, but we didn’t really know how to share
it. We didn’t have good websites share it, but there was a lot of
passion and we were constantly we said, okay, maybe we don’t
know a lot now but if we continue to share, probably
people We’ll be interested in this, and people will join kind
of that community around it. So I think it’s important to
mention as well, it doesn’t have to be perfect from the very
start, you can start very crappy and just continuously evolve.
And if you are truly passionate about it as we are around this
topic, then over time it will become better quality and it
will become more attractive to other people to follow it. But I
think it’s important not to, to start from a point where you
think everything has to be perfect, but it can also be very
crappy when you start as long as you’re passionate about it and
you’re willing to develop it. I think that’s more important than
trying to come up with his perfect way to share it. Jennifer Thompson: Well, I think
as you say that it also brings up the topic of patience, that
you’re totally right when when you start when I started deviant
thinking very much the same thing it was, I was tired of not
allowing, not being allowed to be as creative in the
organization. I had been in And it, you know, it had to grow and
more often, and I think it’s so easy to buy into the overnight
success. And if you are someone who is looking for job, you
know, well, why didn’t I get the first job that I applied for? So
that that patience to build your craft to make that shift is, is
huge. So I appreciate you bringing that up. So thank you. Pim de Morree: And then and then
going back to your your previous question like what is the
premise of the book? Well, it’s about 200 pages, 200 pages where
you will join us on our travels to all these progressive
workplaces. So we start from what I just shared to the point
of frustration in these corporate environments. And the
fact that we quit our jobs. And then we have the book is
structured around eight trends that we see in these progressive
workplaces. So the things these progressive companies do
different than the more traditional ones. And in every
chapter we take you with us on our Journey to, for example,
Patagonia and many other pioneering organizations, and to
see through our lens, what we learned from those companies. So
based on these more than 100, plus workplace visits, we’ve
picked out the most inspiring ones. And we wrote them down in
a kind of adventure style way, where it’s not just a management
book. So we actually want to make it want to make it more
personal. So we, it’s really a lot of storytelling in there
from our side, from our perspective. And then we share
these these eight main trends and we share around 20
organizations that we visited, on how they were different so
from companies, for example, a company in China and white goods
manufacturer called hire, where they split up the big,
traditional organization with 70,000 employees. They split it
up into more than 4000 small companies that act like this
startups where people select their own leaders set their own
working hours, where salaries is dependent on how well they
perform in their small startup. So, companies like this all the
way to companies, for example, a company we visited in Brazil, a
company called semco. Were manufacturing, where this
manufacturing company allows its employees to set their own
salary to determine their own working hours to set up their
own companies and find people around them to collaborate with
them to make those companies a success. So a lot of different
organizations we describe and then we form them around those
eight trends. So in a sense, you will learn the basics of how
these progressive companies work. Jennifer Thompson: Fabulous and
it is a delightful read because it is a great adventure that you
go on. And you’re you’re talking about these eight trends. Do You
Do you mind if I list these eight trends for my listeners
now? Pim de Morree: Yeah, go ahead. Jennifer Thompson: Okay, so the
first one is to move from profit to purpose and values. The
second is to go from a hierarchical pyramid to a
network of teams. The third one to go from direct leadership to
support supportive leadership. Fourth, from planned and predict
to experiment and adapt, five rules and controls moving to
freedom and trust, six centralized authority going to
distributed decision making, and seven from secrecy to radical
transparency, and eight from job descriptions, very near and dear
to my heart to talent and mastery. So some big shifts. And
of course, I’m interested in that last one the the job
descriptions to talent and mastery. So what is what is the
difference there? Can you can you share that quickly. Pim de Morree: Yeah, so the what
we did, first of all, we did a big research study here in the
Netherlands. And when we had those eight trends, and we
wanted to understand how present are each of these trends in
today’s workplaces, in Holland, and painfully, we saw that them,
one of them. One of the ones that was most missing was the
talents and mastery ones. So one of the results was that 33% of
the people who were surveyed, felt they could use their main
talents in their day to day work. Just 33% meaning that 67%
of the people so two thirds of the people cannot use their main
talents in their day to day work, which is not just a waste
of talent, but also a waste of motivation and a waste of
performance also for companies because they hire people and
they don’t use their main talents. Jennifer Thompson: So they just
makes me want to say, holy shit, like what else do you say to
that? So most of us are not Using our greatest talents. Pim de Morree: Yeah. And it’s
such such a waste. So apparently in this this fact, bytes in
itself already shows that the way we organize work is terribly
wrong. And it’s outdated and doesn’t make any sense. So, what
we see in progressive organizations, they don’t focus
so much on job titles. Sometimes they get rid of them altogether.
Or they don’t focus that much on job descriptions, which take
people’s day to day activities. And then when they hire people,
they make sure they hire for that specific job description.
Progressive organizations instead focus on and figure out
what are the talents of my people inside the organization
or even inside a team? What are their main talents, not just the
ones at work, but also the things they like to do at home?
And, and how can we make sure that we craft a job around those
main talents? So how can we make sure that the people in our
teams are doing the things they like to do most with the belief
that if People do things they like to do most, not just
motivation and engagement will increase, but also the
performance of these people will increase tremendously. So it’s
it’s just as simple as that. So figuring out ways and setting up
practices in organizations to make sure that people are more
focused towards their talents, and not hired for specific job
descriptions. So the idea that people move from one job
description to another doesn’t make a whole lot of sense
anymore. Because it makes much more sense nowadays, for people
to figure out what it is they love to do, and then making sure
they develop themselves in that specific topic. And that’s what
these companies try to do as much as possible. Jennifer Thompson: Fabulous and
such common sense. It’s amazing how not common it is. Pim de Morree: Yeah, we see that
with quite a lot of these topics. So it sounds very much
common sense. Also, when you look at for example, to the
other trend from losing control to freedom and trust, like it
makes also a lot of sense. To give people some autonomy
because at home, people can raise children, they can buy a
house, and maintain relationships with friends. And
all of a sudden when they come into the workplace, they’re not
allowed to spend 100 or $200 of company money. It’s also not a
lot of common sense. But still, in many organizations, we tend
to think that that’s a good approach to work, which is not
really the case. Jennifer Thompson: It’s funny
that she is that example of spending money. I knew that I
was frustrated with a job like it came full focus, when I asked
to make a $50 purchase, and it had to go up two levels in the
company to make that purchase. And I was told no, I was
floored. You know, I was working over billions of dollars worth
of product but I couldn’t make a $50 decision and I really
realized we were just mired in bureaucracy and going to
struggle at that point. You’re totally right. Pim de Morree: That’s a good
example. And at the same time, even if you’re not allowed to
spend maybe 50 $50. At the same time, everybody in most
organizations at least is allowed to set up a meeting with
at least a people who spend one or two hours in a meeting. And
if you add up all of those hourly wages, you’re probably a
lot higher than $50. Jennifer Thompson: Oh, if you
could see my face now and the the giggles that are erupting
from it, it’s it’s totally true. It’s totally true. Yes. What
What should we trust people on totally makes sense? Well, Tim,
kind of my one last question. You know, we’ve touched on a
great number of topics. I absolutely love this. I’m
thrilled to have had you had you on the show today. But if you
had like one piece of advice for someone who knows what they’re
passionate about and wants to do something different, what would
be your piece of advice To be able to find a company that they
can do what they love what what they really are talented at
doing how, what, what’s that advice, Pim de Morree: But comes back
to, first of all that working out loud. So share what you’re
passionate about. Search for other people who are passionate
about this topic. So nowadays online, you have so much
opportunities to find people who are passionate about the same
things. Get into those groups, whether it’s Facebook
communities, or whether it’s LinkedIn groups, or whether it’s
local meetups that you can join all kinds of ways to find people
that are like minded and to believe in the same thing. And
start talking with these people. Share what you’re passionate
about. And then organically I think you will find companies
and jobs that fits with that passion. And so it’s about being
open What about what you’re passionate about sharing what
you learn, and at the same time, also trying to find groups That
belief in the same thing and that are passionate about the
same topic. I think this is the most vital parts of anybody who
already knows at least what they’re passionate about. Jennifer Thompson: That is
absolutely great advice is get out there. I like it work out
loud. I think I’m gonna make a poster for my office that that
says that it’s such good advice. Well, Tim, it has been a
pleasure to have you on today, I will be sure to link in the show
notes to your great book, which they can purchase on on Amazon
and other other channels as well. And of course, also link
back to your website that shares information and continuing the
journey that you all on. So thank you so much. I appreciate
it and look forward to seeing more from the Corporate Rebels. Pim de Morree: Thank you very
much. I enjoyed being here and also for people that are
interested in finding some of those pioneering Organizations
if you go to our websites, and if you click on the bucket list
there you have a world map with all these companies where we’ve
been to and the ones we still want to visit, so maybe that can
also be a good starting point for people who are looking for
inspiring companies to work for. Jennifer Thompson: Fabulous, I
will link that in the show notes as well. Well, thank you so
much, and I look forward to hearing more from you all. If you enjoyed this episode, it
would mean the world to me if you’d write us a quick review
over on iTunes. It really does help other people understand
what this podcast is about and hopefully encourage them to
listen as well. Until next time, be deviant.

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